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Talk:Jōgan
Deletion? Isn't the creation of this article a bit too presumptive? The manga series has given us nothing that indicates that this isn't the Byakugan (both the appearance and it's use -to see chakra- is nothing out of the ordinary). Granted the anime did show a darkened scleara and a clear pupil but errors such as those is nothing new for them. With that in mind, I propose the deletion of this article and we keep listing his dōjutsu ambiguously until we get confirmation.--Cerez365™ (talk) 13:56, April 10, 2017 (UTC) :I agree, this is too hasty. --JouXIII (talk) 14:05, April 10, 2017 (UTC) ::I'm going to disagree because I see little value to continuously apply a question mark to this besides the fact that we are still trying to dance around the issue that Boruto's eye just isn't a normal eye. First, despite the fact that his eye looked like a Byakugan we were never able to list it as such. Now we were given a scene of it in actual use (the anime) and it fails to meet the same criteria as the Byakugan as shown previously (not lavender other Byakugan shown, blackened scleara, lack of veins which has been the primary reason to claim this isn't a Byakugan, the ability to see invisible chakra all weird like, the fact that it seems to turn on and off without any input). I see no reason at this point to not actually point this thing out unless everyone is just happen to, again, sit on it for another 6 months with a single sentence under Abilities.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 15:50, April 10, 2017 (UTC) :::I agree with TheUltimate3. This isn't Byakugan, that of Himawari is Byakugan but this no.--Sharingan91 (talk) 16:20, April 10, 2017 (UTC) ::::I'll also have to agree with TU3. Munchvtec (talk) 16:54, April 10, 2017 (UTC) :The absence of veins around the eye is the only thing I can concede. Now I don't follow the series closely outside of what may be necessary to fill an article but am I wrong in assuming that the manga/anime for Boruto works the same way that it did for Naruto? Where animators can make blatant mistakes or "liberties" when animating? The only canon source of Boruto's Byakugan is currently the manga which shows a featureless eye with a barely visible pupil- the same way Kishimoto has always drawn the Byakugan. But, I can understand if it's just to have somewhere to collate the information of the unconfirmed dōjutsu for now. To me, however, it gives off the sense that we're saying it's a new dōjutsu when it's like that it isn't...--Cerez365™ (talk) 17:57, April 10, 2017 (UTC) ::Should point out that Kishimoto has essentially nothing to do with the Boruto series (iirc), it's other writers involved in it now. It's a separate series which just happens to be a continuation of Naruto, so much of the artwork will differ. Kishi did, however, say in an interview that Boruto was supposed to have the Byakugan but he didn't include it, so whatever the eye is meant to be is probably some variant of it, in homage to this. ::The page should be kept though. We've made pages in the past for things that are incredibly vague based on just one episode/chapter, so I'm not understanding the opposition to keeping this for similar reasons. It's the same as with unexplained Kekkei Genkai like Ranmaru's Kekkei Genkai. --''Saju '' 18:02, April 10, 2017 (UTC) :::…except Ranmaru's Kekkei Genkai doesn't have a canon source to contrast against. These two aren't remotely similar. :::Does anyone have an issue with the misleading info template being used instead? --Cerez365™ (talk) 18:22, April 10, 2017 (UTC) :Kishimoto is part of the Boruto Team and helps oversee story line and such, so he is involved with it. There is an interview to support this. -- Princeharris1993 19:42, April 10, 2017 (UTC) ::@Cerez365: Adding a 'misleading' implies something in the article is straight up false. I'm not even sure why we even have a "Misleading" template, when it basically means "Crap in this article is probably straight up bullcrap", which would mean the article shouldn't even be a thing in the first place. So far, this article shows us exactly what we know about this mystery eye: it looks like similar to the Byakugan (except for the color in the anime being nothing alike) can see chakra, and Boruto just kinda turns it on when he squints real hard until he gets older and badass. ::And Kishimoto's own involvement means very little in this in the long run. At the end of the day, unless he's putting pen to paper his words are interesting tip bits at best unless they show up in the anime/manga proper.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 21:47, April 10, 2017 (UTC) Bug Infobox There is a bug in this infobox in "Manga".--Sharingan91 (talk) 17:36, April 10, 2017 (UTC) :Yep, the Volume 1 links to issue one of the Naruto manga.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 21:48, April 10, 2017 (UTC) ::Now it's ok.--Sharingan91 (talk) 11:22, April 11, 2017 (UTC) Kekkei Genkai When was this said to be a Kekkei Genkai?--Keeptfighting (talk) 21:04, May 17, 2017 (UTC) :Yeah, we dont know if its a kekkei genkai yet, maybe its something like a curse passed down to him by a ootsutsuki dead member spirit, we cant jump to conclusions. Its only in one eye too, i cant remember a dojutsu that manifested that way without implants.--Ederson de Assis (talk) 20:08, May 28, 2017 (UTC) ::All dojutsu are kekkei genkai. • Seelentau 愛 議 20:37, May 28, 2017 (UTC) :::Including Kaguya's Byakugan and Rinne Sharingan... EnemyCommander (talk) 23:12, May 29, 2017 (UTC) ::::Every single one of Kaguya's abilities that were mentioned in the databook categorised kekkei mora. Omnibender - Talk - 00:45, May 30, 2017 (UTC) :::::I think what he's getting at is that not all Dojutsu are Kekkei Genkai. But if he really thinks Boruto's eye could be a Kekkei Mora, then there's no need to continue this discussion. • Seelentau 愛 議 09:56, May 30, 2017 (UTC) ::::::That's what he's getting at, what I was refuting is his claim that Kaguya's are kekkei genkai. Still involves bloodlines. Omnibender - Talk - 15:23, May 30, 2017 (UTC) :::::::Well, there's Deidara's eye that he trained to counter genjutsu, wouldn't that count as dōjutsu? --JouXIII (talk) 15:36, May 30, 2017 (UTC) No, Deidara simply trained his eye to counter genjutsu, there is no actual jutsu involved.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 15:43, May 30, 2017 (UTC) Kamui like power I know, seriously, this anime arc is weird and lots of things make no sense, but it would appear as if Boruto had used the space time thingy resembling Kamui with his eye. But for a moment I thought the Nue did it on its own, but then again, why would have Boruto's eye started to shoot lightning?--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 09:41, July 4, 2017 (UTC) :Not a forum, who knows and we'll see. Munchvtec (talk) 09:54, July 4, 2017 (UTC) ::I know this is not a forum, don't be too clever, my point is that it should be documented somehow perhaps.--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 10:09, July 4, 2017 (UTC) ::: C`mon, the next episode is gonna be tomorrow already, lets just wait, perhaps it will be somehow explained. Maybe, the article should state that Boruto's doujutsu bears some connection to the dark chakra (and by proxy to Nue), yet the nature of this connection still isn't clear by a bit. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 10:21, July 4, 2017 (UTC) ::::As predicted, no answer in new episode if Boruto transported the Nue or it did so itself.--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 11:17, July 5, 2017 (UTC) ::::: I think, it was pretty much clear that the space-time portal into/out of Nue's dimension is rather an ability that's connected to the Nue itself rather than Boruto, although his eye seemed to trigger the portal's activation. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 11:21, July 5, 2017 (UTC) ::::::This is as Sasuke Uchiha's Space–Time Dōjutsu.--Sharingan91 (talk) 11:30, July 5, 2017 (UTC) --Steveo920 (talk) 14:56, July 7, 2017 (UTC)--Steveo920 (talk) 14:56, July 7, 2017 (UTC) Seeing the Tenketsu Boruto's dojutsu can make out the tenketsu. If you look closely when Boruto is seeing Nue's chakra network, there are several red dots within the orange lining of the network.--Steveo920 (talk) 02:06, July 7, 2017 (UTC) :Yeah, no. I checked that part multiple times and only thing this dōjutsu saw was chakra pathway system, not any tenketsu. --JouXIII (talk) 12:02, July 7, 2017 (UTC) ::The tenketsu are part of the chakra pathway. • Seelentau 愛 議 12:20, July 7, 2017 (UTC) :::And thus the tenketsu are also visible, I agree with Steveo920, several dots within the chakra pathway can be actually seen. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 12:27, July 7, 2017 (UTC) ::::What point would it be to see the Chakra System and not the Tenketsu? Obviously, tenketsu is included, no idea what JouXIII is blabbering about...--BerserkerPhantom (talk) 13:40, July 7, 2017 (UTC) :::::I'm not going to bother watching this scene again, but from day one, the chakra network and the tenketsu were considered different things. Back in the chunin exams arc, one of the things that hyped Neji was Hiashi saying he could see "even the tenketsu" or something like that. From that, it was always understood to me that while Byakugan could always see and target the network, seeing the actual tenketsu was the extra mile. Omnibender - Talk - 14:08, July 7, 2017 (UTC) ::::::Exactly. Only Byakugan is noted to see both chakra pathway system and tenketsu. In scene where Boruto sees chakra pathway system, there isn't any tenketsu visible. So saying that this dōjutsu can see tenketsu, when there isn't any visible in actual scene, would be a big lie. --JouXIII (talk) 14:17, July 7, 2017 (UTC) :Wrong. Originally, it was said that nothing can block the Byakugan's sight. But there have been barriers that can diminish its sight and genjutsu that can fool it. Also, the Rinnegan was shown able to see the tenketsu points for the Eight Gates. Again, look closely. there are indeed red dots within the orange lines.--Steveo920 (talk) 14:56, July 7, 2017 (UTC) ::This is what Boruto saw. You can indeed make out the shape of some spots, but the spots themselves are still not contrasting or standing out against the network, as they are in other images. They look more like joints. And the spot that is glowing isn't on one of those spots. I wouldn't put much stock on Rinnegan seeing Eight Gates example, since in that case, removing the limit on the flow of chakra is precisely the point of the Eight Gates, which would make the tenketsu that more visible. The notion I'm against here is the "if able to see network, automatically able to see tenketsu", which again, was established not to be the case from the beginning. Omnibender - Talk - 17:10, July 7, 2017 (UTC) :I never said that seeing the chakra network automatically makes him able to see the tenketsu. I said that Boruto's dojutsu is able to see the tenketsu. Now yes, your images look different from what Boruto saw, but so is the overall color-scheme. Everyone else saws the chakra network as blue. Boruto saw it as orange.--Steveo920 (talk) 17:41, July 7, 2017 (UTC) ::How's Omni's picture different from this? Then, a little later, this happens. The tenketsu are part of the chakra pathway, they're just so small that not everyone can see them. If you compare Omni's picture with the aforementioned two, it's pretty obvious that he can see them. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:49, July 7, 2017 (UTC) ::The color-scheme is different. And not every image of Byakugan-sight shows the tenketsu as poking out from the network or glowing.--Steveo920 (talk) 17:53, July 7, 2017 (UTC) :::BerserkerPhantom put forth that argument, that's what I was arguing against. Omnibender - Talk - 17:57, July 7, 2017 (UTC) ::::Yes, I understand, I just wanted to add that while it is indeed true, that not all Byakugan can see Tenketsu, Boruto's (apparently) can. • Seelentau 愛 議 18:01, July 7, 2017 (UTC) :JouXIII, why are you so against this? My vision is 20/20, I saw flickering red dots. Tenketsu. Even one of the administrators here agrees with that.--Steveo920 (talk) 15:58, July 21, 2017 (UTC) Name It looks like Toneri called it "Jōgan" 浄眼 (じょうがん) and it means "pure eye". Narsha (talk) 21:34, July 12, 2017 (UTC) :In Trivia we can to quote.Sharingan91 (talk) 02:40, July 13, 2017 (UTC) I am preeeeeeeeeeeeeeetty sure we do not simply apply a randomly spoken name to an unnamed technique, hm? So why was this moved? We don't even have a legit source for the kanji. • Seelentau 愛 議 08:53, July 13, 2017 (UTC) :Someone should see in the Boruto novel 2.--Sharingan91 (talk) 09:05, July 13, 2017 (UTC) ::It's definitely not in there, the novel was released some weeks ago and doesn't cover the more recent episodes. • Seelentau 愛 議 09:09, July 13, 2017 (UTC) :::2nded. Talk about premature. 17:25, July 13, 2017 (UTC) Jogan Okay, so for now I have added a trivia explanation because I think that's the best we can do. This is taking into account that there's no official source connecting the term "Jogan" with Boruto's eye and that the only connection comes from a personal blog of an animator, meaning we can't use it (it's no interview, no pierrot/shueisha website or anything alike). Especially his words about how the fans shouldn't think too much of it yet and the writer hadn't even thought it through yet. Kodachi told me on twitter that he can't confirm anything, either. So I think we should leave it at this for now. • Seelentau 愛 議 20:26, July 14, 2017 (UTC) : I think it seems perfect in trivia section as for now, until we get some in-series explanations. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 21:13, July 14, 2017 (UTC) ::Kanji in Infobox "Other" is different, this 净 but it should be this 浄. --Sharingan91 (talk) 10:55, July 15, 2017 (UTC) Toneri called it Jōgan in the recent anime episode too. The name isn't up for debate, it's simply that. Pesa123456789 (talk) 13:07, July 15, 2017 (UTC) :You're certainly not one to decide what's up for debate and what isn't, lol. Toneri said a random word in the recent episode and the only connection to Boruto's eye comes from a non-valid source. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:27, July 15, 2017 (UTC) ::Yep, Toneri's words are not much clearer than Kinshiki's statement about some "space curvature". Ravenlot 27 (talk) 14:15, July 15, 2017 (UTC) :::We're waiting "Boruto Novel 3", it could be clearer. --Sharingan91 (talk) 14:21, July 15, 2017 (UTC) :::You should wait for manga to reveal it, and not use a filler arc for its name.--Made up Character Wiki Admin Jack Jackson mod 05:27, July 22, 2017 (UTC) Even the animator confirmed its name, besides every well-known dojutsu has a name, like it's the Sharingan, and two hints have been given to us, Toneri's speech and the animator himself. I find no reason to keep this name because sooner or later it will be renamed Jogan , so why not now. Lord Seventh (talk) 06:28, July 22, 2017 (UTC)Lord SeventhLord Seventh (talk) 06:28, July 22, 2017 (UTC) :I explained this here as well, please read it. • Seelentau 愛 議 09:34, July 22, 2017 (UTC) Momoshiki's words in the anime In the anime, Momoshiki said that Boruto supposedly inherited Jogan as an Ootsutsuki power, but also stated that Boruto is still unexperienced and cannot see through his own destiny. Can we take this as a proof of Jogan's ability to peer into the future (with enough experience) like Momoshiki could with his Byakugan, or that would be a somewhat speculative assumption? Ravenlot 27 (talk) 19:48, August 1, 2018 (UTC) :That's not what he said.--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 19:55, August 2, 2018 (UTC) ::If you could clear up what he did actually say, I'd be very grateful.Ravenlot 27 (talk) 19:59, August 2, 2018 (UTC) :::The anime changed the wording some. For one, in the manga, Momoshiki said that Boruto had inherited the blood of a Byakugan user, while in the anime he says that he had inherited Otsutsuki power, which mean the exact same thing contextually, just worded differently. :::About the whole seeing future, in the manga, it did actually kind of sound that the Byakugan can see a person's future, while in the anime, the wording implies no such thing. Now to set this straight, 99% of the fandom believes that what was said states that the Byakugan can see a person's future, literally, but that's not what Momoshiki actually meant. As we all know, the Byakugan can see chakra and the network and all fancy stuff. My interpretation is, that with the Byakugan, when Momoshiki first looked at Boruto, he had seen nothing impressive. So Momoshiki's words 'even I couldn't foresee my own fate with these eyes' or so (paraphrasing) just means that he did not expect Boruto to be the one who has defeated him, because he had seen no such potential when he first looked at him. Then he looks at him again (probably more thoroughly) and sees that Boruto indeed is special, that's all. The doujutsu can't actually see the future or person's fate, but that's just my interpretation of the text, but for whatever reason, the fandom took it literally.--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 21:21, August 2, 2018 (UTC)